What the Church really thinks of Church and State Separation

The Church today only tolerates freedom of the state from the Church because:

The Church does not have the military forces it had in the past to take control.

The Church does not have a very obedient and supportive flock. They want to have their Catholic, or whatever, cake and eat it too.

The Church has always acted like a lamb in times when it could not enforce its will.

The Church is not the only religion in the nations of today. There will be war if the Church tries to take political power.

The Church always told the state how to do things in the past and the state was just the slave of the Church.

The Church is forced to put up with all this.

The Church is forced because it holds that it is the kingdom of God therefore the Church is the perfect society. The secular state cannot compare if the Church really is from God. So do not be surprised if the Church secretly hates secularists. It admits it hates many forms of secularism. It says you must hate evil things but not evil people. It certainly hates real genuine consistent secularism.

The Church is forced because it holds that we must love God with all our hearts and make laws accordingly and it cannot because secularism works against that doctrine. To love our neighbour means to love what resembles God in them. It is not real love for them at all and is only performed to please God. In principle, people do not matter in themselves. Only God matters and his rules. This is a repudiation of the fact that every law system in the world at least in principle cares about human dignity.

It is forced for only people who love God properly should be in public office - assuming the Church is correct and it says it is. But they are not in public office.

It is forced for it says that God is king and the lawmaker. We might not understand why he makes the laws he makes but we must obey. He has the right to make any laws he wants just like the state has the right to severely punish a man who was just a mile over the speed limit if it so chooses. The state does not enforce God's laws so the state is against God. Even when a state law is the same as a divine one, the state is not doing it for God. It's still not enforcing a law because it is God's. It is enforcing it for non-God reasons so its law opposes God in principle. Sin is an offence against God or to put it another way, it is breaking the law of God. It's a crime not against the civil law of the land but the civil law of God. Crime is that which cannot be tolerated. Thus Christians worthy of the name will not tolerate sin. They will vote so that the law of the land does not tolerate it either.

The Church says that even seemingly unfair laws must be obeyed out of respect for the law and its authority - but up to a point. The Church then sanctions at least some civil disobedience. Any obedience with a but is really just going along with the law rather than respecting or obeying it. It is about the outward motions.

The Church says that the law has the right to be respected and obeyed with regard to unfair laws up to a point but it denies the state has the right for example to order her to stop making shrines along the road that may offend Muslims etc. This is a clear proof that the Church thinks itself above the law. It opposes lawmakers who decree that exorcisms must be forbidden as it is wrong to engage in a treatment of mental illness that presupposes demons exist for that is medieval superstition.

The doctrine of St Paul that pagan legal authority must be obeyed for God set it up does not imply that God wants it in authority. It's only something he puts up with.

The Church still publishes and authorises books such as the Summa of St Thomas which demand that the state must be subject to the Church.

The Catholic Bible says that governmental authority gets it from God (Romans 13:1-5). This means more than that God puts these people in power. God could put a bad person in power though he disapproves of that person being in power. In that case he would not sanction that person’s decrees. The Bible teaches that there is no power but God’s, and that he who argues and fights against the lawmakers fights against the ordinances of God. The Church put this in The Catechism of Christian Doctrine (204. Is it sinful to belong to a Secret Society? It is sinful to belong to any Secret Society that plots against the Church or State, or to any Society that by reason of its secrecy is condemned by the Church; for St Paul says: 'You must all obey the governing authorities. Since all government comes from God, the civil authorities were appointed by God, and so anyone who resists authority is rebelling against God's decision, and such an act is bound to be punished.' (Rom. 13:1.2)) in the hope of conditioning Catholics to believe that the state should enforce laws alongside Christian principles., E.g., the law should not legalise contraception.

When the Church is able, it orders the law of the land even today to ban things it forbids such as contraception and abortion and the publication of books that criticise the Church.

Is it best to live under secular rule?

We all have to live under something's rules.

It may be secular rules that legislate for everybody regardless of religion and which does not let itself be swayed by religious prejudices or doctrines.

Or it could be religious rules.

Or it could be fundamentalist rules.

There are many forms of fundamentalism. Each sect of fundamentalism wars against the rest of the sects. Each sect claims that its beliefs are the truth and must be treated as the whole truth. Each sect claims that it must stand by what its holy book says no matter what science says, no matter what society says. In addition, they say that if reason contradicts the book then reason is wrong, misinformed or doesn't have all the facts for the god who wrote the book knows best. Fundamentalists are only tolerant when they can't do any better. If they have the power to be intolerant and restrict freedom, they are betraying what they stand for if they don't use it.

Our gut instinct tells us we want secular rule.

What does secularism being correct mean for religion?

The very fact that secularism is correct shows that much religion is wrong for it says its God comes first and not the state. Such religion only obeys the state not out of loyalty to the state but loyalty to God.

The rightness of secularism is obvious - this alone is a warning that religion is based on deception, ignorance and manipulation.

Religious believers may read and understand incontrovertible evidence that their faith is harmful and untrue. The first stage of grief is denial. They need help to get to the acceptance stage and they have a right to that help. Part of them knows the truth which is why they react in denial. They know that their saints and their prophets and their Messiah are frauds and have hurt them.

The "religion" of secularism can be as dangerous as any supernatural religion. By the religion of secularism we mean, an intolerance towards religious faith, the notion that all religion is equally bad and harmful and the silencing of anybody who criticises it. It is not a real religion but like religion it is passive aggressive at best and intolerant when fully developed and empowered.

Supernatural religion speaks of the religion of secularism meaning this form of secularism that is hostile to religious expression and belief. Religion is characterised by a refusal to see the truth or to see what reason says - when it reasons it is only within limits. There are doctrines that are not allowed to be doubted or criticised. The religion of secularism is anti-supernatural but by being so stubborn with its doctrines it implies that they are somehow sacred or supernaturally sanctioned. So it is supernaturalism in spirit. Supernatural religion reeks of the religion of secularism and the religion of secularism reeks of it. The religion of secularism seems to realise that religion is unreasonable and only uses reason when it wants to hide its irrationality.


People forget that Catholicism is about doctrine allegedly revealed by God.  The Church also says that duty at heart is about God and doing what God wants.  So duty that leaves God out is not duty at all.  The Church says we owe God worship because of what he is and what good he has done.  Believing what "God" says is an act of worship and the Catholic is warned to do good for others NOT for their own sake but for the sake of God. This comes from Jesus' teaching that the greatest commandment is to make it all 100% about God. That is why those who point to the good works of Catholicism, and nothing else, are missing the point of what the religion is about. That is why a true Catholic cannot keep their religion out of anything that they do. My problem with Catholicism is that it has ignored the contradictions and proofs that the Bible is man-made and that the Church has no power to speak without error. A man-made religion will lead to corruption - no doubt about it.  Secularism is about trying to establish a fundamental human right, secularism is such a right.  Corruption cannot happen because of it but only in spite of it.

Tolerance implies you wish you didn't have to put up with something. Hypothetically, if you could have the right to destroy what you now tolerate, you would use it. Religious warmongers can console themselves that deep down those who seem to be unsupportive of their evil are actually supportive. The negative side of tolerance reinforces that feeling.

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